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    Sunday, November 06, 2005

    What’s A Modern Girl To Do? Feminism and The Orthodox Dating Scene



    Last week in the Sunday Times Magazine there was an eye-opening astounding article by Maureen Dowd. Normally her columns in the New York Times are ones that I skip as she tends to use a lot of name calling and childish type of arguments. Her politics is also on the opposite end of the spectrum than mine.

    That is why it’s so shocking for her to write an article that once and for all puts the nails in the coffin of feminism. Her article is stunning as it is penned by someone who you would think is the epitome of feminist secular culture.

    As a single woman in her upper thirties Maureen describes the utter disillusionment she has with the feminist movement and how it has left her and her peers – single professional women in their mid to upper thirties who have bought into feminism – distraught and alone.



    While the failure of feminism is the thrust of her article she also decries the opposite end of that spectrum, women who hook up, fall prey to men’s depraved desires, and lead empty and unsatisfying lives.

    I must say that unfortunately a lot of secular cultures notions about feminism have seeped into the Orthodox world. I have been astounded at many Orthodox women’s misunderstanding about the Torah outlook on equality and women’s role.

    There is no question that this has led to much difficulties in the dating scene and a well meaning concept has done much damage to the people it was trying to help.

    What’s A Modern Girl To Do?
    By MAUREEN DOWD
    Published: October 30, 2005



    Here are some crucial excerpts from her article:

    “…Little did I realize that the feminist revolution would have the unexpected consequence of intensifying the confusion between the sexes, leaving women in a tangle of dependence and independence as they entered the 21st century.

    Maybe we should have known that the story of women's progress would be more of a zigzag than a superhighway, that the triumph of feminism would last a nanosecond while the backlash lasted 40 years.

    Despite the best efforts of philosophers, politicians, historians, novelists, screenwriters, linguists, therapists, anthropologists and facilitators, men and women are still in a muddle in the boardroom, the bedroom and the Situation Room.”


    The biggest misconception that feminist have is that equality means men and women having the same roles. These feminist could not accept that two genders with different roles can still be equal. Thus their conclusion that everyone can and should do and be everything and there are no intrinsic preferences based on gender, has left men and women in a state of muddled confusion.

    The article continues:

    “…So was the feminist movement some sort of cruel hoax? Do women get less desirable as they get more successful?

    …Women moving up still strive to marry up. Men moving up still tend to marry down. The two sexes' going in opposite directions has led to an epidemic of professional women missing out on husbands and kids.

    Sylvia Ann Hewlett, an economist and the author of "Creating a Life: Professional Women and the Quest for Children," a book published in 2002, conducted a survey and found that 55 percent of 35-year-old career women were childless. And among corporate executives who earn $100,000 or more, she said, 49 percent of the women did not have children, compared with only 19 percent of the men.

    Hewlett quantified, yet again, that men have an unfair advantage. "Nowadays," she said, "the rule of thumb seems to be that the more successful the woman, the less likely it is she will find a husband or bear a child. For men, the reverse is true."

    Calling a natural design in men and women an “unfair advantage” is not only silly but belittles the astounding power of a woman to create and bring forth life. It was not a patriarchal society that gave women wombs or the nurturing abilities that a mother has.



    That one of the results of feminism is that 55 percent of 35-year-old career women are childless, is a travesty and a terrible crime that was indoctrinated upon impressionable young women.

    Before anyone jumps into a hissy fit and thinks that I am advocating all women being uneducated, barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen, let me assure you that is not my philosophy, nor is it a Torah philosophy.

    What I will say is that having and nurturing a family life should be EVERYONES priority. A woman can and should be educated and involved in work or creative pursuits, and still prioritize child raising and nurturing.

    As the article wisely continues:

    “…The Times recently ran a front-page article about young women attending Ivy League colleges, women who are being groomed to take their places in the professional and political elite, who are planning to reject careers in favor of playing traditional roles, staying home and raising children.

    "My mother always told me you can't be the best career woman and the best mother at the same time," the brainy, accomplished Cynthia Liu told Louise Story, explaining why she hoped to be a stay-at-home mom a few years after she goes to law school. "You always have to choose one over the other."

    …Cynthia Russett, a professor of American history at Yale, told Story that women today are simply more "realistic," having seen the dashed utopia of those who assumed it wouldn't be so hard to combine full-time work and child rearing.”




    Being happy and successful does not mean having to keep up with men’s work habits and schedules. The ivy league graduate who is taking time off to focus on family life, will have plenty of opportunities to have a meaningful work or creative experience, whether its part time, home based, or when the children are grown or more independent.

    By prioritizing her family life she is being true to herself, her nature, and her biology.

    She concludes her article:

    “...It was naïve and misguided for the early feminists to tendentiously demonize Barbie and Cosmo girl, to disdain such female proclivities as shopping, applying makeup and hunting for sexy shoes and cute boyfriends and to prognosticate a world where men and women dressed alike and worked alike in navy suits and were equal in every way.”



    The feminist’s vision of a unisex world has led to sowing terrible confusion and pain to so many. Case in point is Maureen Dowd. You can see the pain in this article as she tries to make sense of a world that tells her not to be herself and has left her in a painful and lonely state. I truly empathize with her struggle and I wish for her to find a man’s man who will fulfill her needs and together can build a happy home.

    I actually think that this article is a sort of a singles ad or profile and it was a wise thing for Maureen to do. I wish her the best.

    Who would have thought that the day would come that Conservative Republican / Libertarian and Orthodox Jew, P-Life, would agree wholeheartedly with Leftist Liberal and Secular, Maureen Dowd???

    Will wonders never cease! ;-)



    I have heard discussions in more liberal Orthodox communities stating with dismay how Maureen has betrayed and abandoned their cause and values.

    What is your take on feminism and its impact on Orthodox singles and the dating scene? Have you been personally effected by its misguided message? Or do you still believe it has validity?

    posted by Passionate Life @ 11/06/2005 01:02:00 AM 

    11 Comments:

    Blogger ALG said...

    First of all, no. Just no. More later.

    In the meantime, for what traditional rabbinic Judaism has to say about the desireability of the role of a woman as homemaker, caretaker, and primary raiser of children, see http://jewishbible.blogspot.com/2005/10/ten-curses-of-eve-unpublishable.html. It is quite eye-opening.

    "The ivy league graduate who is taking time off to focus on family life, will have plenty of opportunities to have a meaningful work or creative experience, whether its part time, home based, or when the children are grown or more independent."

    This is just not true. Like it or not, women who take time off to have families end up with many fewer opportunities to do meaningful (paying) work or creative (paying) work. That's just reality. It may be a worthwhile tradeoff for many women (note that only women with the economic means to do so even have this option--i.e., upper middle class or over, day school tuition being what it is), but it's not true that the woman who takes time off will have "plenty of opportunities." Statistics if I have time later.

    --From another single Orthodox blogger (26)

    Sun Nov 06, 08:54:00 AM  
    Blogger Passionate Life said...

    ALG,

    First of all I have a lot what to say on the link you posted. However, I think the Talmudic outlook part of this discussion requires much scholarship and is beyond the scope of this post. Suffice it to say that in my opinion Professor Lerner is being selective and misinterpretive while ignoring the norms of that time.

    As with all aspects of life the key is balance. Recognizing a wrong – women in the past being regulated to secondary status in general society – does not equate with having a unisex bathroom for both men and women or ignoring a woman’s inherent difference from a man in childbearing and childrearing.

    I am not sure what statistics you plan on posting but the only place where “women who take time off to have families end up with many fewer opportunities to do meaningful (paying) work or creative (paying) work” is if they are trying to compete with workaholic men who work 80 hours a week striving to rise in their career in order to become multi-millionaires. Notice how you emphasize the word ‘paying’.

    This issue is not about economic survival, as any educated woman can earn enough to survive and thrive, even if they take time off for family.

    If you are saying that she will have less opportunities to become a CEO of a fortune five hundred company then I agree with you. That’s when I question your definition of equality as having a woman be the next Donald Trump. Is that what feminism is fighting for? Is that what you fear that a woman who takes time to raise and nurture a family will be missing?

    Sun Nov 06, 02:24:00 PM  
    Anonymous deeni said...

    Maureen Dowd is in her early 50's.

    Sun Nov 06, 04:30:00 PM  
    Blogger Passionate Life said...

    Deeni,

    Impressive! She looks like she is in her upper thirties or at most in her early forties. (The picture in the post right after the title of the New York Times article is Maureen.) She also has a very young vibe in her columns.

    At her age it is even more so the tragedy. Real people are hurting and suffering due to well intentioned policies (Feminism) that negatively effect singles.

    If anyone still believes in feminism how do you respond to Maureen’s pain?

    Sun Nov 06, 10:33:00 PM  
    Anonymous What The Hell??? said...

    Passionate Life, based on one article written by one woman (yes, in her 50's!) you have written a post which demonstrates not only a shocking ignorance of feminism, but also an ignorance of what feminism translates into for each individual woman. I make this statement based upon your comments, including "What I will say is that having and nurturing a family life should be EVERYONES priority. A woman can and should be educated and involved in work or creative pursuits, and still prioritize child raising and nurturing" - What planet are you living on? You're in the US, right? What are you, Amish?

    Your closing questions are even more out of touch. What "misguided message" are you talking about, exactly? Maureen Dowd is, like many first-wave ideologues have done before her, trashing the original message which she presumably helped to create- of the 60's, streets away from where the feminist movement is now. It began at the extreme- it had to- but the "vision of a unisex world" you wrongly assume to be the core tenet of feminism was discarded before you were born: Feminism for our generation is about making our own choices. Which, nb does not always mean marriage and children. And the phenomenom of single people of either sex suddenly feeling lonely at any point in their lives cannot be blamed on one evolving ideology, even if it makes a convenient excuse.

    Getting to the your closing questions: I can count dozens of women, frum and feminist, married in their 20's-30's, enjoying a career/children AS THEY AND THEIR PARTNERS SEE FIT. Yes, of course I also know several women in their late 30's who are single and wish for a partner or a child, but your intent to ascribe their individual situations to an universal "failure of feminism" is so patheticly uninformed it is almost laughable.

    Wise Up, Passionate Life. Instead of rushing to put the "nails of the coffin of feminism" maybe do a little research first?

    Sincerely,

    FFB Feminist Blogger (not single enough to join your webring)


    PS And for any commenters- male or female- who assume I'm a bra-burning lunatic, think for a moment: Without feminism, there would be no women's shelters, no vote for women, no legal rights for women, no La Leche League, no sexual assualt crisis centers, no tampons (invented by women), and scant educational/professional opportunities. No female bloggers for you to discuss things with, Passionate Life, because women would not have been enabled to be taught how to use a computer! So, Passionate Life- you still don't believe in Feminism?

    Tue Nov 08, 03:16:00 AM  
    Blogger Passionate Life said...

    What the hell,

    Apt name there my fierce feminine friend, ;-)

    You wrote:
    “And the phenomenon of single people of either sex suddenly feeling lonely at any point in their lives cannot be blamed on one evolving ideology, even if it makes a convenient excuse. “

    Then how do you explain the stat in the article that 55% of career women in their mid thirties are childless? That is a direct correlation with feminism indoctrinating the values of competing with men in the rat race and 80 hour work weeks which results in these women waking up and realizing they have been had by a movement that has done terrible damage to their lives and has possibly cost them the chance to have children.

    Please don’t tell me that it’s a choice to not have children. If you ask these women (Maureen is case in point) the majority will tell you that they thought they can have it all as feminism falsely espouses.

    It’s simply not possible “to have it all.” Super mom, career woman, and wife are a myth.

    Don’t knock the Amish; you should try their lifestyle for a couple of weeks. I can see it now, Grandpa Jacob wakes you up at 5am and tells you that its time to milk the cows. You bean him on the head with the nearest vase shouting at him that you are not a milkmaid. He then asks you to bake some bread and he has to duck as your shoe goes whistling by his head.

    On second thought, maybe that’s not such a hot idea. Too bad, Rumpaspringa is really cool!

    You wrote:
    “Yes, of course I also know several women in their late 30's who are single and wish for a partner or a child, but your intent to ascribe their individual situations to an universal "failure of feminism" is so pathetically uninformed it is almost laughable”

    A lifestyle or idealism that leaves its adherents utterly confused on how to act and live in tune with its principles yet find happiness and fulfillment in life; can legitimately be called a failure.

    Did you read the same article I did? Across the board feminism is not inline with a woman’s intrinsic sense of comfort. It tries to tell women all kinds of ways to act like men, and women are extremely uncomfortable doing so.

    You also mention that feminism is an “evolving ideology.” Does that mean that many of its tenets have been failures and misguided? Okay, it’s fair to try and correct something when you see it is harmful. So what pray tell is the new ideology?

    You mention choice. Does choice mean that anything a man can do a woman should be able to do? Does it mean that you can’t see equality if men and women have different roles in life?

    By your definition if a woman CHOOSES to be a housewife and mother is she a feminist?

    Would that make every woman automatically a feminist?

    And your last point crediting feminist for everything under the sun is very curious. Feminism can take credit for a host of good things they claim to be responsible for but they won’t take responsibility for some of the unintended HARMFUL consequences of their ideology?

    As usual Feminists want to have their cake and eat it too.

    No can do sister.

    Tue Nov 08, 04:40:00 AM  
    Anonymous What The Hell Responds said...

    Passionate Life, you didn't actually read anything I said, and chose to label me as a fierce feminist because it makes it easier to both mock me and dismiss my arguments.

    You, a single man who is not a feminist, are using the experiences of one woman as depicted in one article, to prove your point. Whereas I, a woman who is a feminist, can draw on my own experience and that of many many others with very successful stories of career, motherhood and happy marriage (draining sometimes, yes. Myth? Shut up!) to disprove you in an informed manner, yet am still being dismissed by you (who cannot even admit that he doesn't understand feminism) and told that I am still wrong, that feminism has failed, is dead!

    This is a bit like (Lehavdil) if a Roman Catholic blogger posted about how Biblical Judaism was dead, useless, failed, and you, PL a Halachic man, commented that wasn't the case- here you are, living proof! Yet the blogger, instead of acknowledging that he may have been a little hasty in declaring Judaism dead without even knowing what Judaism means today, doesn't even bother to read your argument and doesn't concede your point. In fact, he even mocks you. What would your reaction be?

    Not that you believe me, but yes, it is a choice not to have children: Granted, it is a choice many women and men may well come to regret- I have heard it regretted often from people of both genders. But I have never heard anyone blame it feminism in such a pathetic manner. Dowd's argument- and even your interpretation- demonstrate huge immaturity and irresponsibility. Generally, people who are mature enough are able to recognise their own past mistakes tend to be able to place those mistakes within their own contexts, as opposed to whine that Feminism/Zionism/Communism/any ism duped them into not taking responsibility for their actions.

    Regarding statistics: people- men and women- are having children later, or not at all. That is OK. Our planet is grossly overpopulated as it is. And, deny it if it makes you feel better, but not everyone wants to be a parent. I know that premise doesn't work so well in terms of Jewish values, but those attitudes are evolving too, our religion is one of dynamism.

    There is no contradiction in a woman who chooses to be a housewife/mother calling herself a feminist. (whether she defines herself as a feminist or not is irrelevant) the point is that today she has the opportunity to choose from many options and previously- in Maureen Dowd's era- she was restricted to that path of homemaker/mother. That is not to say that homemaking is not a worthy and crucial path, or even to the exclusion of others. It isn't about cake! That, my friend, is ideological evolution! Looked at Socialism lately? Liberalism? Any -ism?- they are all full of contradictions, backtracking, re-grouping, as they evolve. And evolution is a natural process for all ideologies, you cannot accuse feminism- or any ideology- for being weak/dying just because it has evolved and rejected some original tenets. Just take a look at our religion, if you need further proof!

    PL, If you genuinely wish to educate yourself, I suggest you google Feminist Theory, Feminism or Blogs By Women and start there. Take your time, there is more to learn than you might imagine. And you will also realize that most of the women you know are, by default, feminists. And above all, that it is not a dirty word.

    Good luck finding a partner.

    Tue Nov 08, 05:37:00 AM  
    Anonymous What The Hell Just Notices Something Else said...

    "You mention choice. Does choice mean that anything a man can do a woman should be able to do? Does it mean that you can’t see equality if men and women have different roles in life?"

    If those are genuine questions, I'm only sorry I just wasted my time in replying to your comments above.

    To answer: No, you fool. We have different biological make-up, that would be impossible. And vice-versa. And who said that the notion of "equality" contradicts taking on different roles? The issue here is that women should not be discriminated against, whatever role they choose to take, and that they should the have rights and respect that men have always been granted without argument. You don't think that's important?

    Tue Nov 08, 05:49:00 AM  
    Blogger Passionate Life said...

    What the hell,

    You wrote:
    “Passionate Life, you didn't actually read anything I said, and chose to label me as a fierce feminist”

    Actually, I did no such thing. I called you, “my fierce feminine friend”. Is feminism opposed to a woman being feminine? Maureen writes how she was discouraged from wearing make-up and high heels. Are those not a personal choice? I hope that is one of the outdated notions of feminism, but unfortunately it still is a theme for many feminists I have spoken to.


    You wrote:
    “You, a single man who is not a feminist, are using the experiences of one woman as depicted in one article, to prove your point. Whereas I, a woman who is a feminist, can draw on my own experience and that of many many others”

    Actually my credibility and yours are not very subjective as we each have a political and worldview we are defending. That is why Maureen Dowd’s article and testimony is so valuable to this argument. She is a leftist liberal so she has no ideological reason to knock feminism. She is someone who has experienced a lifetime of feminism and clearly depicts its destructive and confusion sowing ways. Her testimony with no political axe to grind is a fair representation of actual results of feminism, not the ideological “talk” that sounds so good. That is the problem with many movements, they sound good, but in practical real life they are a complete or partial train wreck. Communism is a good case in point, as their ideals are so lofty and sound worthwhile but utterly counter human nature.

    You wrote:
    “yes, it is a choice not to have children: Granted, it is a choice many women and men may well come to regret- I have heard it regretted often from people of both genders. But I have never heard anyone blame it feminism…

    … Generally, people who are mature enough are able to recognize their own past mistakes tend to be able to place those mistakes within their own contexts, as opposed to whine that Feminism/Zionism/Communism/any ism duped them”

    I completely agree with you that people must take responsibility for the choices they make in life. They must search out the truth and make corrections when they discover their life has gone in the wrong direction.

    For example, let’s say someone was abused as a child. They will have emotional and dysfunctional issues to deal with as they become adults. They need to take responsibility and utilize therapy to achieve their personal growth. They won’t get anywhere if they blame their abuser for the state of their life.

    However, that does not mean if we become aware of the abuse that we don’t have a responsibility to stop it. ANY movement that indoctrinates young people in a way that will cause them harm must be spoken up against by caring and concerned people. It is not a contradiction with taking personal responsibility.

    Young women (and men) are vulnerable to the feminist’s credo that sounds so empowering and right. If caring people can make them aware of its fallacy and harmful nature, we must speak up. That is what Maureen is doing and I applaud her greatly for her bravery. She did it at great personal costs, because her natural base of friends and readers are very upset with her and the people who will agree with her article from the right won’t become her fans because of her other positions. She did it purely to let young women know that feminism is a failed ideology that will harm them in life.

    Kudos Maureen, Kudos.


    I can’t believe you actually said the following:
    “Looked at Socialism lately? Liberalism? Any -ism?- they are all full of contradictions, backtracking, re-grouping, as they evolve. And evolution is a natural process for all ideologies, you cannot accuse feminism- or any ideology- for being weak/dying just because it has evolved and rejected some original tenets. Just take a look at our religion, if you need further proof! “

    ANY ideology that is full of contradictions and backtracking has serious fundamental issues. The ones you mentioned are on serious life support because they are not guiding their well meaning emotional values with logic. For you to compare Judaism to those movements is an egregious affront and illuminates how you have been blinded by secular values that YOU believe requires Judaism to “reject some of original tenets.”

    The beauty of Torah Judaism is that it is so true and powerful that all monotheistic religions basically formed their own religious version based on ours. More importantly Judaism has NEVER and will NEVER reject our original tenets. That is the basis of our movement. Judaism can be clearly defined and described as opposed to these other tired ideologies that are muddled and confusion stricken.


    You wrote:
    “And you will also realize that most of the women you know are, by default, feminists. And above all, that it is not a dirty word.

    Good luck finding a partner.”

    Most women are by default feminist??? Can you articulate in your opinion what EXACTLY is required to be a feminist? I hope its more then that women should be treated fairly and have the right to choose what they want in life. Because then you are not a feminist but a humanist. ALL humans should have those rights.

    I thank ya for your good wishes for me to find a partner. Does she have to be a feminist or will you still be happy for me if she is against feminism? ;-)

    Tue Nov 08, 12:58:00 PM  
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Great article and comments. I skimmed the angry feminist response and the blogger keeping his cool in response. Well done.

    In Jerusalem there are a good number of attractive, left-wing, single, 30-something, feminist, chip-on-their-shoulder American/Canadian women.

    They are attracted to a shul like Shira Chadasha, which is Modern Orthodox liberal (calls women up for aliyot and adds women's names into the prayers.)

    To be left wing in Israel, surrounded by 1.5 billion Arabs that hate you, you have to be...not quite pinning the tail on the donkey.

    A lot of these women are on power trips of some sort and are kind of sad deep down...they can't find a suitable mate...but they are kind of hot commodities at the same time...They tend to be very picky....

    My sense is a lot come from divorced homes.

    I was with a woman who sabotaged the relationship-working a lot and planning overseas trips and social events for herself...way beyond what a woman who said she wanted to marry would do...I found she didn't really want to (in the future) stay home with kids...I came to realize that she really wore the pants in the relationship...she was a hard woman...brilliant and a great person, but incapable of letting go...

    I'm now avoiding these sorts of women...going for a woman with a more traditional and soft outlook.

    I think its great that the writer of the article is reassessing...Good luck to everyone!

    Fri Oct 06, 05:21:00 PM  
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Great article and comments. I skimmed the angry feminist response and the blogger keeping his cool in response. Well done.

    In Jerusalem there are a good number of attractive, left-wing, single, 30-something, feminist, chip-on-their-shoulder American/Canadian women.

    They are attracted to a shul like Shira Chadasha, which is Modern Orthodox liberal (calls women up for aliyot and adds women's names into the prayers.)

    To be left wing in Israel, surrounded by 1.5 billion Arabs that hate you, you have to be...not quite pinning the tail on the donkey.

    A lot of these women are on power trips of some sort and are kind of sad deep down...they can't find a suitable mate...but they are kind of hot commodities at the same time...They tend to be very picky....

    My sense is a lot come from divorced homes.

    I was with a woman who sabotaged the relationship-working a lot and planning overseas trips and social events for herself...way beyond what a woman who said she wanted to marry would do...I found she didn't really want to (in the future) stay home with kids...I came to realize that she really wore the pants in the relationship...she was a hard woman...brilliant and a great person, but incapable of letting go...

    I'm now avoiding these sorts of women...going for a woman with a more traditional and soft outlook.

    I think its great that the writer of the article is reassessing...Good luck to everyone!

    Fri Oct 06, 05:22:00 PM  

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