Is Religious Zionism Destructive For Orthodox Singles?
I came across a great profile on Frumster. She is an American in her thirties, intelligent, insightful, charming, witty, multifaceted, and spiritual. As I am reading her substantive and intriguing profile, I can feel that sense of hope rising within me. You know the sense that perhaps this woman has that unique set of characteristics that just might be complimentary with your own. Perhaps you indulge in a moment of daydreaming imagining yourself on a beautiful and sunny day lounging in a garden with this person and having an inspirational and soul connecting conversation.
Her way with words, her view of the world, and her interaction with mankind, all have a sense of familiarity; all inspire a warm sensation of home, safety, and connection in the deepest, most innermost part of your being.
Then, just as the reflection of the sun in her hair is causing you to do a double take and make sure that she is not really an angel as she appears to be, you hear a terrible screech!!!!
Your daydream is shattered by the last line in her profile.
"Living in Israel does not have to be 4sure - but has to at least be 'in the cards' as an option."
"What????" You hear yourself utter in dismay.
A voice reverberates in your head, "I can't believe you would give up on our future, our potentially amazing compatibility, just because of that one line! Just because you have a love for the Holy Land, does it necessitate giving up on a possible soulmate because you are convinced that you must live in Israel?"
Unfortunately the answer is yes. That one line prevented me from writing to her and exploring any possibilities between us. I have also had numerous interactions with incredible, passionate, intelligent and insightful women who, due to their insistence that they can ONLY live in Israel, ended any possibility of our dating.
You might ask, why shouldn’t I consider moving to Israel as well? For myself, and I know for many other men and women, the notion of moving away from friends and family, our shiurim and rabbis, from our hard fought and well established careers and livelihoods, from our community and chesed involvements, and most of all not being able to see our darling nephews and nieces grow and blossom, is counterproductive to the kind of lives we seek.
Don’t get me wrong, we love Israel as well. We too feel the siren song of its holiness, the heavy and intoxicating weight of our history embedded in every square foot of the land. The multitude of our brethren interspersed throughout the land, meeting and greeting Jews from every walk of life, are all great lures.
We look forward to visiting Israel as much as possible. Some of us make sure to visit at least once a year. But to ask us to uproot ourselves and disconnect from our environment on a permanent basis, is unfair and unrealistic.
That leaves a great breach in the Orthodox singles scene. One of our greatest problems is the minuscule dating pool that has been splintered through divisive labels (Yeshivish, Modern Orthodox, Chasidish, etc.) is now being splintered even further. That leaves more and more singles frustrated and alone and causes great pain and damage to all.
The question is, should Orthodox singles make living in Israel a do or die issue when it comes to dating?
Are the Aliyah promoting organizations and Israeli seminary’s doing a great disservice by promoting Aliyah with such fervor to singles?
It is true that many believe that we have an obligation and can only fulfill many mitzvahs by living in Israel. Is it still a mitzvah when you weigh it against the damage being done to singles overall?
Should these Diaspora singles who insist on living in Israel and sacrifice so much for their love of Hashem and the Holy Land be applauded for their idealism as brave pioneers?
Or is it a spiritual indulgence (albeit a heartfelt and sincere one) that is causing the splintering of the already too small dating pool? In the greater scheme of things is this idealism causing great damage to both the idealist and his or her soulmate who just might not be willing to forsake family and friends?
Your thoughts?
posted by Passionate Life @ 10/21/2005 12:09:00 AM
66 Comments:
Author: NG over at Faith In Nathan Comments as follows:
Passionate,
I was fairly nauseated to read that, and won't respond in depth except to point out the following:
Religious-Zionism is not putting a line in a frumster profile saying that living in Israel is important but not mandatory. Living in Israel is mandatory to Religious-Zionists and to all Jews.
Living in Israel is not a "spiritual indulgence." It is essential to our survival as individuals and as a people. If anything, maintaining our links to the Exile is a spiritual indulgence.
Yearly visits to Israel does not demonstrate love of Israel. They demonstrate like of Israel. Anyone who loves Israel can't help himself but live here.
Any American of the Jewish faith who fails to relocate to the center of the Jewish world is writing himself and his descendants out of Jewish history. All the more so for those who won't even consider relocating who thus will transmit a message of Exile values to their poor children.
Saying that living in Israel has to be in the cards is a very far cry from saying that "I won't go out with someone who doesn't want to live in Israel".
Besides, it's not a disservice. People make thier own choices. Don't throw the weight of the individual on the Religious zionists. That's madness.
I think you're off base. How is this different than any other extremely important goal a person may have in life which they are committed to?
I have mixed feelings about responding to your solicitation for a comment via commenting on an unrelated post on my site. Still...
I feel a deep yearning to live in Israel. I lived there for five years and then went back to exile. I still hope to go and would have a bit of ahard time getting someone who can't say they're open to the option. I feel the pain of one (you)who feels he won't be going to Israel ever. In general, my strength and weakness is always seeing both sides.
I feel that, in relation to dating, it is important to keep an open mind about many things rather than counting potential dates out because of certain aspects or disagreements in viewpoint.
The issue of aliyah is one that is still undecided in my mind, and one that I am trying to keep an open mind about. I think it is hard enough to find people with whom you can be of a similar mind with, that location is something I am willing to be flexible about. And I would hope that others would do the same. I think it is a decision to be made between a couple, not individually, and hopefully one that can be with the best interests of both in mind
NG,
Sorry that you had such a visceral emotional response to my post. I respect your Zionistic fervor but not everyone shares your passion or beliefs. Clearly you believe there are NO mitigating circumstances for a Jew not to live in Israel and you believe that all Jews should move there at any cost to their personal and professional lives.
For most Jews who don't share your extreme opinion their halachic adviser or counselor would advise that living in Israel should NOT be a make or break issue in dating. Finding the right person takes precedent halachicaly and practically according to most in the mainstream.
Elster,
She states that it must at least be in the cards. I can not honestly respond that it is. Besides many women have told me unequivocally that they wont date someone who does not wish to live in Israel.
As far as putting responsibility on the individuals and not the movement, I beg to differ. It is the movement that is telling young women in seminaries that the only place to live for a good Jew is Israel. A: That is not true and B: its hurting these and other singles.
I have no issue with them preaching to married or engaged couples but to do so to singles is causing them harm. The movement is not looking out for the best interest of the singles it is looking out for its own self interest. Someone needs to speak up on behalf of the singles.
If I don't do it, who will? ;-)
Anon,
The reason it is different then other goals that an individuals may have is because its a movement that is encouraging youngsters to have such beliefs. I would say it is the equivalent of Bais Yakkovs brainwashing teenage girls that the only acceptable and respectable person for them to marry is a Kollel boy who will sit and learn. That approach causes great damage as well, but that's for another post. ;-)
Rabbi Neil,
Sorry, but I think this is an important issue that people don't realize the damage being caused and I want people to at least think about policies that have far reaching effects that might not be immediately visible.
I do appreciate your comment and concern for me. I do plan on moving to Israel, as soon as Moshiach arrives. My question for you is if you found an amazing Aishes Chayil that fits what you are looking for but the only problem is because she has a close knit family and just could not leave them to move to Israel, you would drop her?
If your answer is yes you would drop her, think what a tragedy this is for her who might be in her thirties and not be able to find such a wonderful mench as yourself and is therefore suffering and alone Chas Vesholom possibly past the age of bearing children.
Now, THAT is a tragedy. Don't you think?
Shoshana,
I am much more comfortable with what you are saying. Let the couple discuss it and see if there is a way to work it out or compromise somehow. That is so much better then ruling people out because of this criteria.
All in all I must say that most commentators are not looking at this issue from the perspective of the single crisis and how this has added to the terrible tragedy of our day. Take a step back and look at the entire singles pool and you will see that this is another major wedge issue that is splintering otherwise very compatible singles.
Hashem should help us all.
Have a great Shabbos!
P-Life ;-)
I wouldn't rule someone out, I don't think, because of their strong position on one side or the other.
Since I never said, and don't believe, that "there are NO mitigating circumstances for a Jew not to live in Israel" or "that all Jews should move there at any cost to their personal and professional lives," I don't think I should be expected to defend those positions. This is what we call a "straw man" in Logic 101.
Substantially, I'm amused by your references to what a "halachic adviser or counselor would advise." Is this a "halachic adviser or counselor" who himself doesn't live in Israel? It sounds a hell of a lot to me like buck-passing and seems as if there are tens of thousands of Americans of the Jewish faith who are all cooperating to rationalize each other's silliness. Get over it. You want to find the right person? Israel is bursting at the seams with the most beautiful, sweet, intelligent young Jewish ladies of every imaginable hashkafa and lifestyle. Come meet one of them and settle down. Or don't. Whatever.
The way I see this, you are taking a long, hard and cold look at a mitzvah that's unpleasant to you and you are not only declaring that you will not follow it, but you are sniping testily at those around you who strive honestly to do so. Imagine if some girl's frumster profile said that keeping kashrut must be in the cards. If you love bacon so much that it prevents you from dating her, so be it. But don't get mad at her for insisting on something that's pretty basic to a Jewish household. Precisely because of people like you, she's right to state it upfront.
If you think it's incorrect that "the only place to live for a good Jew is Israel," I suppose this begs the question, what do you consider a good Jew? Does a good Jew observe Jewish law? Does he strive to strengthen the Jewish nation? Does he try to make sure his children will be Jewish? All of these would lead a good Jew to live in Israel. Is Israel "the only place" for a good Jew to live? No, because a Jew who is physically unable to move should not be expected to do so, and certain activities do require Jews to be in exile, such as kiruv, Aliyah promotion and Israeli embassy staff. Aside from that, ask yourself simply if it's better for a Jew to live in a city of idolators in the land of Israel or in a city of Jews in the exile.
Finally, I think you should be ashamed of your cynical use of "when the Moshiach arrives" terminology. You state above that you "can not honestly respond that" living in Israel is "in the cards" for you, and below that you "do plan on moving to Israel, as soon as Moshiach arrives." These two statements can not both be true if you also have faith in the speedy arrival of Mashiach, and in any case, if you responded that you don't intend to keep kashrut, but you will do so when the Mashiach comes, you'd be ridiculed by the whole Jewish world.
NG,
I respect your passion on this issue. You are a fervent Zionist and have a right to your opinion. I do take issue with your equating living in Israel to Kashrus.
I would tell an Observant person to not date someone who does not keep Kashrus. Would you tell an Observant person not to date someone who does not plan on living in Israel?
My biggest problem with your fervor is the lack of taking into consideration the damage of splintering the singles dating pool.
The fact remains if there is an eligible dating pool of 20,000 singles and 10,000 move to Israel you just created a very difficult hardship for BOTH the 10,000 in America AND the 10,000 in Israel. While they may find some matches within that 10,000, for 2 or 3 thousand in each group you just might have condemned them to remaining single because their bashert just might be on the other side of the world, thanks to Zionistic preaching to singles.
I have a hard time with extremists that don’t care about the pain or suffering that goes along with adhering to their personal agenda. It is not that the agenda is so bad, its not. The problem is the lack of taking into consideration the far reaching results of the agenda. In this particular case it is hurting the already vulnerable singles population.
A very clear equivalent would be in the Yeshivish world where the Bais Yakov girls are taught they should strive to marry a learning boy. While this is a very laudable goal, the far reaching consequences is the unrealistic outlook foisted upon these girls that causes them to overlook perfectly appropriate boys that are earning a living while having a shier.
This results in a large amount of single girls who don’t have enough learning boys to choose from and end up being older suffering singles.
Your suggested solution for all singles to move to Israel is the equivalent of telling all boys coming out of Yeshiva to be learning in Kollel, “because that is the right thing to do.”
My goal in bringing up these issues if for us to first discern and recognize some of the root causes for the current singles crisis. Chief among them is well-intentioned goals (Zionism, Kollel, etc.) that unwittingly result in pain and suffering for singles by splintering and shrinking the eligible dating pool.
I would love to see people thinking and working on ways to implement these worthwhile goals without hurting singles. Then we can all be on the same page.
How about this?
Singles should be encouraged to state:
“I would love to live in Israel but I won’t allow that one issue to get in the way if in most other ways we are compatible.”
Can we all agree on that statement?
*sigh
You should have dropped her an e-mail, or however it's done on that site. Even if she does love Israel. She sounds wonderful. Would you REALLY give up the woman of your dreams out of fear of change? What's wrong with the possibility of living in Israel?
For full post, see: American Aliyah and Cupid's Arrow: A Match Made in Heaven or A Recipe for Disaster?
There is so much that I would like to respond to of what Passionate Life wrote, but I will limit my response to two ideas that were raised:
1) One gets the impression that Jewish educators are committing a heinous crime by educating their students to live in Israel. As if to say that the yearning of every Jew, both as an individual and as part of the greater Jewish People to return to Israel is something foreign to Judaism (as opposed to part of its very essence).
This must truly be an upsidedown world, if those who remain true to the heritage and traditions of the Jewish People, who really mean it when they pray to Return to Zion, are labeled as the guilty party, while those who willingly choose to remain in Exile are portrayed as the innocent victims of Aliyah fanatics.
To be continued...
Part 2:
2) I don't agree with your "compromise" statement.
Living in Israel is not just another issue that might appear on someone's checklist of what they are looking for in a prospective spouse. A person who says that they want to live in Israel is not merely saying that they would prefer to live in one location instead of another (for instance, someone insisting that they will only live in Brooklyn or Toronto), but of someone making a statement that they can't live a complete live as a Jew without being in the center of the Jewish world, of Jewish history and of the Jewish future, namely, the Land of Israel.
Someone who says that they want to live in Israel is saying that they want to take an active role in shaping the destiny of the Jewish People. They are saying that they want all future generations who will come from them to be born and raised in the one true home that he Jewish People have. Someone who insists upon living in Israel is saying that they want to leave the Exile and take part in bringing the redemption of the Jewish People closer.
This person, who truly wants to make Israel their home, can not possibly be satisfied by finding a nice guy / girl and settling down in Teaneck or the Five Towns. There will always be a gaping void in the heart of this person, they will be living a life full of potential unfulfilled, of an essence that is being forcibly locked in the closet.
True, there may be particular circumstances that prevent the individual Jew from making Aliyah (and this should be discussed with ah halachic authority - preferably one who lives in Israel or recognizes the centrality of living in Israel), but let us not mistake those exceptions to the rule with Jews who have grown complacent and comfortable in the American Exile, and let us not place the blame of the singles crisis at the feet of those who still have the courage and idealism to follow their hearts and take an active role in fulfilling the destiny of the Jewish People - in the Land of Israel.
Dear Passionate Life:
Your own screen ID is exactly what that beautiful girl you want to marry seeks: a Passionate Life! She wants to move to Israel because Aliyah is the passion of our times. She does not want to marry a guy who is married to his job, his rabbi, his shiurim , or his nephews - she wants a real man with passion in his eyes!
Moreover, your whole premise about marriage disregards one main motivating factor of marriage - Children! That beautiful women wants to have her children grow up in Israel, in the Jewish land, speaking Hebrew, going up to Yerushalaim - living the dream! Teanek living is not for her offspring - she wants a FULL Jewish life for them... and she wants a husband who will give her that life...
I have seen it over and over again - Olim couples are beautiful. Its so exciting for singles with a common background and language to meet here in Israel, or to make Aliyah together from Chul. Its realizing a dream, overcoming odds, growing together through a joint endeavor.
You wrote: "Just because you have a love for the Holy Land, does it necessitate giving up on a possible soulmate because you are convinced that you must live in Israel?"
You missed the point: Israel is our soulmate, G-d is our soulmate, and we yearn so much to get closer.
The Aliyah movement is going to get only bigger - this very conversation testifies to that new reality.
After waiting two thousand years to go home, your beautiful gal does not want to wait any longer - don't keep her waiting!!!
Aliyah is the privilege of our generation to truly lead a PASSIONATE LIFE!
Hi Ze'ev,
I appreciate your very thoughtful and sincere comments as well as the post on your blog. Clearly Zionism is a heartfelt focus of your life and I appreciate your respectful tone despite my seemingly opposing point of view.
I want to be clear, while I might not share your zeal that moving to Israel before Moshiach is incumbent upon every Jew, generally I don't oppose it. Rather than having this conversation become about whether one has to move to Israel or not, I would like to focus on to what length and how far you would go to insist that Jews move to Israel.
My main point of this post was to bring awareness to an unnoticed negative side affect that is resulting from this zeal being imparted on singles.
1. Will you admit that this is causing a splintering of the singles pool and thereby causing heartache for many singles that have a diminished dating pool?
We might respectfully disagree on what to do about the harm being done to singles. You might believe that because these singles are not elevated enough to let go of the Golus (exile) and have the proper outlook of moving to Israel at their earliest possible convenience, that too bad on them and they are bringing this singles suffering upon themselves.
I would respectfully disagree. NO ONE has a right to threaten future generations of Jews by harming singles prospects and causing singles (particularly females) to reach the age beyond childbearing, alone. At this point, it is incumbent upon religious Zionist to acknowledge this and try and find real and practical solutions.
2. If at the end of the day its a choice between a 37 year old woman being able to marry a man who due to obligations must remain in the United States, or walking away to await someone who is willing to live in Israel, it is no choice at all. If given this scenario you would tell her that her dream of living in Israel is more important and she should continue to insist she must live in Israel, then I have nothing more to say.
Can you see why I am so passionate about this issue? This is not a hypothetical scenario. I know of women in this age range who because they could not live with themselves otherwise are foregoing dating men who don't plan on moving to Israel. Please tell me that having children takes precedent over living in Israel even in your book?
Yes, for many the choice has become that stark.
If you wish to respond, please address points 1 & 2 specifically. I hope we agree more then we disagree.
May we all shortly witness the day when this debate becomes moot as we all move to Israel to join Moshiach in uniting us all once again. Amen!
Hello Yishai,
Really beautifully said. Your response almost makes me want to get on a plane on Sunday. ;-) Okay, maybe that’s pushing it a bit, but in all sincerity you do lay out a beautiful essay (utilizing my screen name to boot!) about the beauty of making Aliyah.
I even agree with you that it is a beautiful self-sacrificing act that has a lot of spiritual upside.
I can’t believe that I am about to argue this, (usually I am more for elevated parts of life rather then complete practicality) but are you telling me that women don’t demand stability, deep roots in the community, and a close knit family from a prospective husband? That she would rather go for someone who would abandon all that for passion in his eyes?
Are you going to tell me next that we should believe in love at first sight? ;-)
A man, particularly in his upper twenties and thirties realistically speaking needs to have a way to provide for his future family. You would say that he should have faith and make Aliyah and Hashem will provide.
If that is true,
1. Would you tell all women that they should not consider dating someone who plans on living in America because his livelihood is here and he does not have the idealism/passion and faith to make the leap and move to Israel?
It sounds to me like the exact same argument that people make about sitting in Kollel and learning full time.
2. Would you tell all women that they should not date someone who does not plan on learning full time in Kollel? After all what could be more beautiful then learning and devoting your life to Torah?
They are both flip sides of the same coin. No one is going to argue that learning full time is not a mitzvah and a beautiful thing. Most people would not argue that making Aliyah is a not a mitzvah and a beautiful thing.
The question is, is making either of those two issues a mandatory requirement for MARRIGE a wise and sane halachic policy???
The answer in my book is unequivocally NO. It will cause great damage to the overall singles population and that takes precedent over an ideal. Again, both are laudable goals but NOT at the cost it takes on singles when it is made into a blanket policy, one size fits all approach to indoctrination of our teenagers and young adults.
Please see the subtly of the situation. Zionism can be a beautiful goal, ideal, and mitzvah, while still causing damage to a particular group of Jews (singles) when preached as an ultimatum.
By the way,
Why is everyone picking on Teaneck??? ;-)
I am not that familiar with Teaneck but my overall (admittedly stereotypical) impression is that it's more Zionistic then most other Jewish U.S. cities.
I suppose that could be a reason why you are picking on them. If they are so Zionistic why haven't they all moved to Israel already?
Is that it? ;-)
Passionate,
As far as Teaneck goes, it's basically the Jerusalem of the US (along with Brooklyn and the 5 Towns). It has plenty of shuls, Yeshivot, Mikvas, kosher restaraunts... basically anything and everything a Jew could possibly ever want in a life... Unfortunatley, many Jews then become convinced that Teaneck is their Jerusalem...
To answer the questions you addressed to me:
1) As I see it, based on your definition of what can be considered a splintering, virtually any mitzvah can be considered as causing a splintering of the dating pool.
If one believes that living in Israel is in fact a mitzvah, similar to Kashrut and Shabbat, how can one compromise?
The Rambam and Shulchan Aruch both state as Halachah, that if a husband wants to make Aliyah and the wife doesn't, he can divroce her and not have to pay her Ketubah. If a wife wants to make Aliyah and the husband doesnt, she can divorce him, and he must pay the Ketubah.
Would one say, based on this halachhah, that the Rambam and Shulchan Oruch are in favor of fcausing divoreces within the Jewish community?
I think what the halachah is getting at, is that for someone who living in Israel is so central to who they are, then they will not be able to live a happy, meaningful Jewish life anywhere else.
I do not believe that by one insisting that they will only go out with someone whois willing to live in Israel that they are harming the dating pool, simply because they wouldnt settle to get married with someone who doesnt want ot live in Israel - they wouldnt go well together, so in reality, your chances have not really been diminished at all, as chances are, you would not have hit it off with any of these girls.
Also, your issue is not with Jewish educators but with the Torah for placing the idea of the Jewish People living in the Land of Israel as a central tenet of Judaism. When you say that no one has the right to threaten future generations of Jews by harming singles prospects, so what would you advocate, making it forbidden to move to Israel as a single?
Also, could it not be, that by choosing to remain in America you might be harming the prospects of any future generations to come?
To be continued...
Part 2...
Passionate, to address your second question:
2) I'm assuming in your example, that this woman believes very strongly about living in Israel (if that is not a correct assumption, then what I am saying would not apply):
I would tell this woman one of two things:
1st, why not make Aliyah now, and try to find your bashert in Israel where there are plenty of singles.
2nd, if she would only insist on making Aliyah with a husband, I would tell her to consult with a halachic authority who understands the obligation of a Jew to live in Israel but at the same time, of the individual situation of this woman who may not meet another guy at this stage of her life to marry.
No one wants this woman to remain single, or any Jew for that matter, but by what right do any of us have to totally disregard a central tenet of Judaism - one so central that it is considered to be equal to all fo the other mitzvot i nthe Torah. That is not a decision for you or I to make, but a respected halachic authority, who can balance both his appreciation of the obligation of Jews to make Aliyah, and of the need for Jews to get married.
You keep comparing Aliyah to Kollel learning, I do not see anywhere in the Torah that refers to Kollel learning as a mitzvah. It may be nice, but I do not see it as being on the level of a Jew living in Israel.
Also, you seem to refer to Zionism as something external from Judaism. Rav Kook and others make it very clear that a complete Jewish life can only be found in the Land of Israel (on both an individual and national level) - and that is not something to be given up lightly.
Passionate, you said (on Oct. 27, 1:51am, in case the link didn't work...I'm still kind of new at this) that "My goal in bringing up these issues if for us to first discern and recognize some of the root causes for the current singles crisis. Chief among them is well-intentioned goals (Zionism, Kollel, etc.) that unwittingly result in pain and suffering for singles by splintering and shrinking the eligible dating pool."
In case I just misunderstood you, I don't mean to put words in your mouth. But, if I understood correctly, it seems as though you're saying that Zionism is just some well-intentioned fantasy that shouldn't be considered until after marriage? If American Jews stopped making aliya, would that solve the singles' crisis? I don't believe so. At the very best, that would only slow down the process and postpone the issue. Zionism/Aliyah isn't the problem facing Jewish singles abroad, but rather, the solution.
Passionate Life:
I refused to go out with anyone in the US that didn't have aliya as an immediate priority. The second I finished college, I got on a plane and moved here. single, no job, no money. B'H, I met my bashert, got a job, got married, and I'm raising a family here (and could not fathom living anywhere else)
Waiting for Moshiach till moving to Israel? I'm sorry, but your comment is not very civil, and rather offensive. Thats as offensive as the following (which are also offensive and I apologize in advance):
- I won't go to shul till one is built near my house.
- I won't keep kosher till a kosher restaurant opens near me.
- I won't keep mitzvot if they aren't convenient till they become convenient.
Hoping to see you here BEFORE Mashiach comes.
Shavua Tov.
--Jameel.
P-Life,
You write (in your latest comments to Sweet Rose's post on the issue):
"NO ONE should be asked to uproot their whole ESTABLISHED lives in order to fulfill an ideal. EVERYONE, no matter where you live, can legitimately request that their potential date not make this ideal a make or break issue. "
But isn't that what Hashem asks of us? I dont think that you can argue that a Jew is meant to live in Galut. Don't you pray for everyday to return to Israel?
The Jews of Babylon had a chance to go back to Israel and rebuild the 2nd Temple with Ezra and Nechemiah, but they had similar reasons as yours as to why they prefered to remain in the Babylonian Exile instead of moving to Israel.
A Major part of Judiasm is deferring our own will to that of Hashem's. We aren't only able to thold by the Mitzvot that we like or are easy to do.
It is clear that Hashem wants the Jewish People in Israel - the question is, if that matters enough to all the Jews who still are not here?
Passionate Life,
I think in many ways you answered your own question when you wrote "...to ask us to uproot ourselves and disconnect from our environment on a permanent basis, is unfair and unrealistic."
The people that live here or express their desire to live here have chosen Israel as the enviornment they wish to be rooted in and connected to. To ask them to abandon this enviornment on a permanent basis is unfair and unrealistic.
That being said, I understand your concern about the size of the available dating pool. All of us are looking for someone that meets our requirements. Some of these requirements are more important than others. For me personally my desire to live here is a priority I am unable to compromise on a permanent basis.
People are flexible, she did not say "we must live there NOW" rather "Living in Israel does not have to be 4sure - but has to at least be 'in the cards' as an option." She is letting you know what she would like. Is that a reason not to write her and "write her off"? Write her see what she has to say!!!
From a person living in Israel who just experienced this wishing he had more of an opportuinty to explain things more clearly.
I live in EY and i LOVE it here. But lines such as the following miss the mark, IMHO :
"Living in Israel is mandatory to Religious-Zionists and to all Jews"
ALL?? So the great Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav YB Soloveitchik didnt fulfull what is mandatory of ALL jews? The saintly Chofetz chaim? The Vilna Gaon? The Baal Shem Tov? The Rema? Rashi? The Amoraim in the Gemara? ALL jews have a mandatory obligation to live in EY? News to me. And to most people in jewish history.
"It is essential to our survival as individuals and as a people"
Thats funny. We didnt have *that* many Jews living in EY for 1000's of years. Seems to me that we survived. Where is it written that we need to live in EY in order to survivie? Our rabbinic leaders have expressed to us again and again that what *is* essential to our survival is learning torah and doing mitzvos
"Any American of the Jewish faith who fails to relocate to the center of the Jewish world is writing himself and his descendants out of Jewish history"
ANY?? again, even Rav Moshe? Even Rav Soloveitchik? Even Rav Ahron Kotler? come one....
ELSTER -- i agree on both accounts:
1 - wanting aliyah in the cards is not the same as saying its "yehareg v'al yaavor"
2 - even if it is yehareg v'al yaavor, any individual has the right to make choices in his/her life. if you dont like it, dont marry her!
We made aliyah a year or so ago. I was always very thrown by frum acquaintances who would ask "Why are you doing that?"
The question for any observant Jew surely has to be "Why am I NOT living in Israel?" If one has a compelling reason to stay in chutz laretz, a reason that one can live with, so be it.
But it's illogical to live as an observant Jew, to daven for a return to Israel, and to not ask oneself the question.
One other point; the families I see here who are having the toughest time with aliyah are the ones where one spouse very much wants to be in Israel, and the other spouse is ambivalent. I think the young lady who made her wish to consider aliyah a part of her profile was very smart; she may avoid many difficulties down the road.
I am a sigle frum male, living in Yerushalayim. I am p[resently in Berkeley, CA, where I have been guest Rabbi at the Bet Midrash here. I met three amazing women, each of whom could be my 'soulmate'. I was going to go out last night with one of them. In every way, she's amazing. But I live by the words I daven. I'm Lo A'aleh Et Yerushalayim...." To even see someone who isn't so committed to the Land that she's not there yet, is inviting only anguish. The man who wrote about giving up a wonderful life and not being ready to give up his hard fought career, is just the fulfillment of the Torah speaking of those who melted into the fleshpots of Galut. He doesn't have a clue as to what time it is in history and what the Jewish imperatives are today. Kee Mitziyon tetze Torah.... But his Torah comes from the Galut. Remember, most Jews didn't leave Egypt and most didn't leave Bavel and most didn't leave Persia and most didn't leave Europe. Will the Jews of America be the same? By the way, I called off the date.
Other people have posted
"even if it is yehareg v'al yaavor, any individual has the right to make choices in his/her life. if you dont like it, dont marry he"
Quite right. I'm sure those single women who have made aliyah or are considering it appreciate all the support they seem to be receiving on this thread.
This whole topic of Eretz Yisro-el is full of deep passion, emotion and desire and can be quite overwhelming. As one caring, compassionate Jew to another, I have to ask those women who are so gun ho for this, if they've really thought it out.
I ask this because as a dating male I have run across too many women in Flatbush, Boro Park, Passaic, as well as Rachavia and Har Nof, in apartments and basements in their late 30's and early 40's who put Eretz Yisro-el above everything else. They risked their own potential mortality and a chance to serve Hashem on the highest level a women can achieve and now find themselves still single, at a chronological disadvantage.
Women do not have a mitzvah to marry so it may not matter to some. Men not only have this mitzvah but also they must have children and therefore are inclined to find a partner with the best chance of helping them fulfill both mitzvahs. (I can almost see all the eyes rolling and the self righteous indignation coming up as you recall every exception to the rule...every women who ever gave birth over 40 so, on and so on. Look, it's my mitzvah, not yours. "Nishmas Adam Ner Hashem". I don't come into your dining room and blow out your Shabbas candles Bein Hashmoshes).
So before making that decision about Aliyah ask yourself a few questions:
First I wish each and everyone one of you success in finding a marriage partner, one aliyah minded or if you're already in Eretz Yisro-el, one who wants to stay.
But to keep this in the realm of reality:
1) Can you marry an Israeli? If you're not open to men from different cultures you've got a strike against you. Not every Anglo you find is going to want to stay.
2) Is your desire to live in Eretz Yisro-el Avodas Hashem or Avoda Zorah. Wouldn't you better serve Hashem by marrying and bringing more neshamas into the world.
If you've just got to go, give yourself a realistic time frame. If your approaching 37 or are over you really may want to rethink this.
As for myself. Yes, I want to make Aliyah but I want to do it with a partner and do it right. I want to create the best opportunity for success and for me that means doing it here and putting it together in chutz l'oretz. My Rabbis and Gedolim have told me I have a mitzvah to marry and that supercedes living in Eretz Yisro-el. If I can have both and I"Y, I will, it will be with a partner who possess patience and can provide encouragement.
Hatzlacha
I would simply like to say that "at least you understand the WHOLE PURPOSE of a site like Frumster. The Only reason the profiles are there is to make your search for the perfect "Soulmate" that much easier. Would you have liked it better if she had not said that in her profile and then you date for 2 or 3 months and get ready to ask her to come under the Chupa and then she asks you "what are your thoughts on living in Israel?"... at which point it becomes obvious that you just wasted 3 months of very important shidduch looking time on someone that was not COMPATABLE with you.
If She was truly your soulmate or you hers, that one line would not have been an issue... in fact it might have made your heart flutter to have finally found "The One" you have been searching for. I don't recall anyone saying that finding your Beshert or Besherta should be easy so you should not get deterred when something like this happens. And, as someone has posted above - Just because a profile says one thing doesn't mean that you can't ask if they would be at all willing to change their mind - just don't go in with any expectations and if it is meant to be it will happen.
H-shem has a plan and if you are not meant to marry her i am sure he still has a kallah picked out for you somewhere but you must be looking for her and not complaining about the women that do not fit your criteria for a match.
I can't believe such nonsense. Many people are unwilling to relocate. Why should Israel be singled out? The person who feels there is something wrong with insisting on Aliyah when he himself is insisting on staying is being stupid, at best. Basically, he is saying he should be having his way, because insisting on staying is just as bad an argument as insisting on moving. The only difference is that moving gains kedusha staying doesn't. There are many women in the Satmar who won't make aliyah. Find one there.
One more thing... As i read more of the posts above i can't help see two things.
1. i really do not think that you understand the definition of Beshert.
2.If it is pool of woman that you are worried about being depleted by Aliyah your fears and energy are misdirected.
If you are truly dismayed at the current number of Jewish woman available in America you should focus all of your energy on eliminating Inter-marriage and Assimilation. This far more of an immediate danger to jews looking to find a mate then the fact that some want to move to israel (which is a mitzvah, irregardless of your personal stance on the subject - and it is not for us to judge the reward or punishment for doing or not doing a mitzvah).
You say that you can not compare Gds command to keep kashrus with Gds command to reside in the land of Israel. Who are you to determine which mitzvahot are more important? Just something to think about.
I really do not mean to be confrontational, but i think i may come off that way so i will take a break now.
I hope there are no hard feelings,
I think the commentator "Longing to be there" put it beautifully. This is not a question whether Aliyah is a Mitzvah or a wonderful thing. We basically all agree with that premise.
The question that so many of you seem to be ignoring is the real life pain of the older singles population in their thirties and forties who are living alone.
For many of them their passion for ONLY dating someone who wants to make Aliyah that began in their twenties has led them to where they are today - single, alone and almost or past childbearing age.
That tragedy SUPERSEDES the mitzvah of making Aliyah.
The answer is to still preach love of Israel and making Aliyah but to balance that with making PRIORITIES. All singles should try and be as open as possible. If the only issue preventing you from connecting with someone is Aliyah, its time for Religious Zionists to step up and say, "Yes we think you are wonderful and know that you want more then anything to make Aliyah, but we fully understand and agree that getting married takes precedent. You have our blessings and good wishes!"
Do I hear any takers of that pledge?
I fully support this woman in considering making aliyah being a semi-condition for marriage. While I myself do not have plans for aliyah at the moment, I can relate in a different way. My wife and I are Balt Shuvas with Chabad and have recently moved to Crown Heights, Brooklyn. I have many single friends here are involved with Chabad and would not feel comfortable marrying someone opposed to the philosophies that all the Chabad Rebbeim set forth, because it is more than just "important," but rather it is a major force in their personal connection with Yiddishkeit. Similarly, this woman doesn't view making aliyah as simply important, but as a concept that truly defines her Yiddishkeit.
I feel she should be comeneded for staying true to who she is and not sacrificing a Jewish value important to her. Hashem will provide for her. Furthermore, I respect her for not wasting the time of potential shidduch dates and bringing this issue to the front at the beginning.
Having married and lived in Israel for the first 7.5 years of my marriage, I understand the desire to stay in Israel. My children miss Israel deeply, despite the fact we left when they were young. In addition, when I hear Jews planning their careers out loud, to be here in the States for the next 30 years, my stomach aches and I cringe openly.
Aliyah must be the end goal for all Jews. Even if it is not realistic in the next year, or the next five years, a Jew must understand that ultimately we have no control over where we live, only Hashem does.
My best advice for young singles is to embark on a career and education that will allow you to work in Israel, so that even if you must wait, you will be able to support your family once the dream becomes a reality.
Israel is not an easy place to live, particularly for the religious zionist public. But Israel is still home, and it is our only true home. We are guests in Galut, and as long as you understand that, always, whether you live here in the US or in the Holy Land, your family and your children will be much better off.
Kol Tuv,
Nofyah Altman
havn't got the presence of mind to respond aptly rite now-but thanx..it's made me think about the issue...
Maybe I'm talking to the wrong crowd when I bring up a famous Seinfeld episode where Jerry can't see himself dating a girl who likes "that docker's commercial". Why do I bring this up? Because there are millions of reasons for people to stay single. Both men and women might remain single staying in America, l'tzaareinu harav, as they do in Israel. Therefore, nothing is guaranteed.
you suggest that we are splintering the dating pool, as is also the case in those who like the dockers commercial vs. those who don't. For those who can't read between the lines, I chose the dockers commercial example davka because it's so superficial and something so small often unravels a potential "soul mate". Whereas something so meaningful, important, halachic, et al, should it not al achat kama v'kama impact your deliberation whether to be there as the potential pool for the aging NY spinsters or to fulfill the prophecies of G-d as stated in our Holy books, beginning with the Torah itself?
i also want to point out the following, based on the above.
1. there is no mitzvah to learn in kollel. whereas there is a mitzvah to learn both day and night, no source in any of our mainstream halachic materials state a positive mitzvah of learning in a structured building receiving pay-checks from the government or from pappy.
2. there is no mitzvah to get married, only to have children.
3. food for thought and maybe a side-topic: is it mutar or even commendable for a single woman whose biological clock is ticking and has not yet found a mate to undergo artificial insemination so that she can "bring in more neshamas?"
4. with regards to mitigating circumstance, mr. passionate, please spare me your sob story. rabbis? shiurim? nephews? if those are mitigating, this whole discussion is moot because you can apparently find a heter for pretty much eveyone on the planet and for any mitzvah. (e.g. i am exempt from eating in a sukkah this year because i have a brother). how does that sound?
5. finally, you take issue with comparing two core mitzvahs is jewish life, yet you don't explain why you take issue. i'm curious. i know that the gemara says that yishuv eretz yisrael is k'neged kulam and (as far as I know) does not say that about kashrut.
Do we live in a FREE world or not?
Freedom of ideas...is also a freedom!
point.
Uhhh,
Color me stupid, but as far as I know, the idea of marriage is to become complete.
How exacty is one supposed to be a whole Jew foregoing one of the primary mitzwoth?
Maybe empty vessels living in an empty place in the world might find fulfillment in partnership by fulfilling their duty.
And lest anyone take a look at my site and get the idea that I'm looking for a match, I am living in the Holy City for Israel, happily dating a sabra.
I wish that the writer of this article would stop urinating in the “dating pool”. You portray yourself as a warm, cuddly, deep, soul searching type of individual. Then why is it that I am so disgusted by your attitude? I think it because you have created for yourself your own religion and it is not called Judaism but selfishness. For Jews, living in Israel is of utmost importance. Don't you know that the Mishnah states that a woman may divorce her husband if he will not move to Israel with her and in such a case he must still pay her full Ketuba? (Ketubot, Perek 13, in the Gemorah on 110:) You silly goose. Living in Israel is more important than any of the arguments that you put forward. You are shallow and quite clueless. Please do not continue to visit Israel if this is your attitude. You are so unabashed in your hate for one of Hashems most central Mitzvot that I am afraid you may meet a nice Jewish girl here and take her away to your friends, career and whatever other idols you are worshiping over there. You throw away one of the pivotal tenets of Judaism and then publicly complain when others don't do the same. You try to defend your emasculated view of Judaism by attacking those of true faith and integrity. Get a life before you try to get a wife!
Okay, many of you have passionately defended Zionism and refused to acknowledge that when it comes to singles some leeway should be given when educating our youth regarding marriage.
So let’s take a step back and see if we can at least agree to actively rectify some of the unwanted and unintentional side affects of Zionism and the singles crisis.
In my latest post,
Calling All Zionist: A Call To Action
I am asking for your help and active participation in elevating the suffering of singles, WITHOUT having to compromise on any of your principles.
Can we all at least agree that this call to action is a worthwhile idea and an active obligation for us all?
Thank you. ;-)
The prophet Yirmehahu wrote of the time that HaShem would return His chosen ones to Israel...he writes there would first be fisherman...then hunters. Go home to Israel...be lured there by His voice, by His Word, by His mitzvah. Go now...before the hunters come. Go home now, find your mate there. Go home now with your possessions and financial resources! America will soon not be a safe place to live. Go home. HaShem is calling you home from all the diaspora!
More people, and especially young Jews, should be aware of a certain brilliant figure from the past, namely the Jewish orthodox rationalist, Mar Samuel, of the Academy of Sara, Babylon, from about the year 220 ace. He made a famous decision, which by the way most affected the Jews, and was expressed in the phrase, Dina d'malchuthah dina—"The law of the land is the law for us." This means that it was the duty of all people including the Jews to obey the laws of the countries in which we live.
Jeremiah's famous quote, which should be etched into every adult's consciousness, was "Seek the peace of the country whither ye are exiled and pray to the Lord-for its welfare." The ultimate result of Samuel's dictum was that the better the Jew, the better the patriot.
Jeremiah out trumps Jabotinsky in the Wisdom Card Game by a mile.
The above may explain somewhat my worldview/belief system.
in regard to the last post.
What??!
What does supporting and praying for the welfare of the country you reside in have to do with any other post in this thread?? or are you just venting to vent :-)
Dear "Anonymous",
It may be better to post your real name for further dialogue to be possible.
I am not "venting" as you put it. I am pointing out to many of the brainwashed "sheople" that there are alternative and valid views about the settlement of the Holy Land at the time of Moshiach, which are contrary to those pushed by Herzl, Kook, Jabotinsky, Weizzman, Schneerson etc.
I have been dealing with people with conceptual limitations all my life.
What you don't know can hurt you...
You are saying "Aliyah is not in the cards". You are the one who is giving this one consideration preference over finding your soul-mate. How could you do that? Send her a letter. If she is your soul-mate, she will convince you.
Adam Neira,
That is a far stretch you are making from Shmuel's halacha to say that he held you don't have to make Aliyah.
All he said is that while you are living in a different country, be a good citizen there.
But now, when the phrophecies of Kibbutz Galuyot are happening before our eyes to say that you don't even have to think about living in Israel thanks to Shmuel's halacha is nothing more then delusion.
... and a few more points:
* As an American who made Aliya while single and has been part of the dating scene in Israel I can say that things here are great! Plenty of nice women to date. The best in the world.
* You, Mr. Passionate, are putting your career and friends before the essential Mitzvah of getting married. You choose to live in the US where you openly state that there is a lack of suitable women to marry, whereas you could move to Israel, where you admit there are so many suitable women, and fulfill this Mitzvah. Just where are your priorities? Shame on you!
* The problem is not that women make Aliya to Israel, the problem is that not enough women (or men) make Aliya to Israel. With that said, those women that do move to Israel are to be lauded for once again saving the Jewish nation. You, Mr. Passionate, are an impedance to this positive process.
* Your argument is not mathematically correct either. Unless it is proved otherwise, the amount of single women that make Aliya should be assumed to be equal to the amount of single men that do. With that being the case there is no net effect on the dating pool at all. This is true unless you have some major advantage over the Jewish single males that make Aliya, which would make their leaving the dating pool insignificant (it could be that you do assume this to be the case). Also lots of guys in the US will not go out with girls that do not want to make Aliya, I was one of these. This also is a big gain for you and your ilk.
* Why don't you complain about the women who will not leave California or Chicago or NY or wherever you don't happen to live? Don't they soil your dating pool? Maybe you are single because you are obstinate, not idealogical and shallow. You twist the truth to suit your own needs. Just like The Spies in the desert before you, you attempt to weaken the hearts of the strong and those loyal to Hashem and his Torah. There is no room for dialog on this issue. You are wrong!
In response to Chaims comments I would like to make a few points.
First, I would like to respond directly to Chaim but his tone, making personal insults and a statement that there is no room for dialog, doesn't exactly leave room for a civil conversation.
(Every aspect of the Torah is open for dialog, it's the first principle in Pirkey Avos. In fact that is the purpose of studying Torah, to invoke dialog in understanding Hashem's Torah.In fact, when this conversation is civilized and done respectfully it is de-facto studying Torah.)
So for other readers I would like to clarify a few issues he brought up. The shrinking of the dating pool by making aliyah is not dependent on an imbalance of male to female ratio. If an equal amount of males and females make aliyah, there still is a shrinking of the pool (both in Israel and America). If the pool was 10,000 women and 10,000 men and 5000 women and 5000 men moved to Israel, that would have reduced the eligible amount of singles that an American or an Oleh can date by half. It doesn't follow that the 5000 will marry the 5000. There are too many variables and other criteria that make that impossible. What will happen is approximately 2000 of the 5000 will marry 2000 of the 5000 and that will leave 3000 men and 3000 women without mates. Those numbers are not meant as an exact count but as an overall realistic outlook on the dating scene.
Okay, you can put down your calculators now. Whew!
The other issue he brought up is singles who live in other communities such as LA, Chicago etc who don't wish to move. Yes, the more locations Orthodox Jews live in the greater the splintering of the dating pool. I don't have an issue with anyone anywhere that wishes to remain in the place he or she has deep roots and commitments. If the dating pool in that location is too small, they will have to make the choice whether to relocate to a more populated area.
I responded to Hubscubs comments about Dockers vs Zionism in the latest post - Calling all Zionists: A Call To Action.
Dear Passionate,
You wrote:
"I can't believe you would give up on our future, our potentially amazing compatibility, because you have a love for the Holy Land, does it necessitate giving up on a possible soulmate because you are convinced that you must live in Israel?"
Her question to you is:
"I can't believe you would give up on our future, our potentially amazing compatibility, because you are so attached to America, does it necessitate giving up on a possible soulmate because you are convinced that you must live in the USA?"
You see, you're just as demanding. You're willing to give up on her just because you're not willing to give up on the USA.
Please check out www.singolim.org to find a compatible mate who wants to be in Israel
Yishai,
Lets break down the difference between those two counterclaims.
Someone who is born in America, has all his family and friends, sisters, brothers, elderly grandparents, dozens of nephews and nieces, dozens of elderly, infirm, other needy people depending on him on a weekly basis. A career spent years building that is nontransferable to Israel. A shul and a kehilla with dozens of people that are like his family, dozens of other commitments and local connections, etc. Clearly his not moving to Israel doesn't even constitute a choice at this point. It would be abandoning everything he holds dear and a lifetime of commitments and people who depend on him.
VS.
A single women who has all of that here in America and due to a lofty and worthwhile ideal moves to Israel. She might have less of an attachment to life in America due to lesser ties built through the years, smaller family etc. Or she is so passionate that it overpowers her commitments and connections.
If she is so passionate about making Aliyah, I would not tell her not to. I would wish her well on her journey and in finding a zivug.
My issue would be with the educators that put such a zeal and passion in her to move at such a personal cost to her and fellow singles.
Again, this is about the ends justifying the means. You believe it does, I believe it doesn't, or at least find a realistic solution for the side effect problem you are creating. (Begin with acknowledging the problem - Splintering the singles dating pool.)
I am sorry to say the author would have not been saved with the nation of Israel as they left Egypt. My question to the author if he found a nice girl who was not interested in covering her head or better yet was not religious but was a good person who he was able to love would he marry her.
Seeing your nieces and nephews is not a torah commandment yet living in Israel is.
Moshe, Why did you bring us out of Mitzrayim into the desert? We are starving here. We could have stayed with Pharoh and the fleshpots and never have had to worry about anything!
Passionate Life - You have merely been assimilated. Your individuality and uniqeness has been added to the general population of goyim and you are starting to see yourself as one of them. Fear not, for there is still time for you to throw off the shackles and be free - but you must be willing and you have to first understand that there is a slight... if ever so small chance that You may possibly be wrong. Can you admit that?
The Matrix has you P-L. You may ask - "what is the Matrix?". Let me tell you. The Matrix, Passionate Life, is the world that has been pulled over your eyes, to hide you from the truth.
So, what's it gonna be, P-L? The Red pill or the Blue pill? But remember..., all I am offering you is the truth.
Sorry, i couldn't resist.
I really do think you are off your rocker though. I cannot comprehend that you believe the statements you make to defend yourself. I honestly do not know if it is even worth discussing this with you, because you compare this thread to learning torah, yet you seem unwilling to "learn" anything.
I like this new version of orthodox judaism you espouse. It's like a smorgasbord. I'll choose Shabbat this week, but forget about kashrut. I'll check my new suit for shatnez but I wouldn't dream of living in Israel. Next week there's a big football game on Saturday, so let's not do Shabbat but instead I'll choose to send away a mother bird when I take her eggs. What a great religion you think we should have. Only problem is that orthodox judaism is NOT a smorgasbord. You can't choose what you will or will not do. As Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi said regarding the prayers of those Jews who don't live on or plan on living in Israel, but keep on praying for a return to the Holy Land: "their prayers are like the chirping of birds."
The Sifri, Rashi, and the RaMBaN said that reason we were required to keep the Mitzvos in Chutz LaAretz is so that they wouldn't be new to us when we return to Israel.
Devarim 11:18
Here is a nice link about the importance of Eretz Yisroel.
http://israelnationalnews.com/english/newspaper/torah/ask-rabbi-10-Jul-02.htm
My experience is an example of the immaturity of making Aliyah a pre-condition to a relationship:
I turned down someone who may have been my soulmate over the issue of Aliyah. At the time, I had very idealistic views of eventually being in a position which would make Aliyah a possibility for me. Now that I am older, I realize that living in Israel is not in my destiny. This reality does not dminish in any way my love and committment to Eretz Israel.
I am single today and regret having missed an opportunity for a married life with children in the US.
anonamous /\
You say that you can see that turning down a shidduch because of their views on aliyah are different than yours is a bad idea - and you have a very valid point. If you find someone that is almost a perfect match and that is the only thing standing in the way - you should discuss it openly and in depth with each other so you can make an informed decision.
The poster who started this blog, however, is saying that it is wrong to even want to make aliyah!! I am sure that even now, knowing what you know, you would still support another persons decision to want to make aliyah, and their right and responsibility to do so, if they can. Am i right?
Yitzchak,
Of course I don't think its wrong to make Aliyah. I think its a laudable goal and the people who do so are to be highly commended for their sacrifice and love for the Holy Land.
Actually, based on your last post, I think we actually agree. My whole issue is that many singles are making this issue a make or break issue. The anonymous poster before you, speaks to his/her regrets of doing so.
Somewhere way up in the comments I posted the following:
Singles should be encouraged to state:
“I would love to live in Israel but I won’t allow that one issue to get in the way if in most other ways we are compatible.”
Can we all agree on that statement?
PassionateLife
After observing the dating game on the Upper West Side for a while and observing other dating scenes for the specific goal of trying to find the root of the problem, my colleagues and I have discovered the ultimate issue. The single most debilitating issue in dating is closed-mindedness. You don’t seem to realize that you are the one splintering the dating pool. With your unfettering desire to stay in the US (no matter what the reasons) you are inhibiting yourself from meeting and going out with a greater amount of potential brides. One simple idea that everyone seems to forget is that in the dating pool, 100% of the girls have the potential to be your bride. This has nothing to do with the fact that you hate blondes or won’t even look at a girl above 165 lbs since many people continue to marry girls that they never would have seen themselves with. Your original tale was a perfect example of how your close-mindedness prevented you from getting in touch with a girl who could have potentially been your bride.
With that idea in mind, and after conducting some uncontrolled experiments, we have come to the conclusion that eventually people forget about 1,000 bad dates when they do eventually meet their bride. Based on that conclusion, the best way to meet your bride is to severely cut down those pages and pages of checklists that the average 28-35 year old has written up about the perfect “soul-mate” and just date anyone with a remotely similar standing as your own. Of course, we foresee major outcries towards this line of thought; however, maybe dating 100 girls indiscriminately really is all you need to do to find the right girl.
But the deeper issue involved with not dating indiscriminately is really a lack of emuna. Most people between the ages of 28 and 35 have just lost faith. They get depressed because they think they will never actually find a mate. However, if we work on this basic tenet of the Jewish faith, which can easily be done by learning as little as 15 minutes of mussar a day, (or maybe even by reading a page or two a day of a R’ Akiva Tatz book), we could probably get rid of a lot of the issues currently being faced by UWSiders and similar communities.
Also…
”My issue would be with the educators that put such a zeal and passion in her to move at such a personal cost to her and fellow singles.”
You do realize, my friend, that we are all discussing adults who are perfectly capable of making their own decisions. Are you seriously going to place “blame” on educators for a 35 year old woman’s desire to make aliya? I doubt she even keeps in touch with her seminary Rabbis. How dare you insult the decisions of mature, educated, and intelligent people.
Mordy S.
Dear Passionate:
1.You wrote: "Begin with acknowledging the problem - Splintering the singles dating pool."
I don't see it as a problem per se - rather, I see it as the beginning of a movement. The Jewish people are returning to their Land, and no one said it would be easy. The split in the dating pool that you speak of is another testament to the burgeoning Aliyah Revolution.
2. You also wrote:
"Singles should be encouraged to state:
“I would love to live in Israel but I won't allow that one issue to get in the way if in most other ways we are compatible.'”
In my opinion your compromise statement is a bad deal. A person who wants to make Aliyah can find the perfect mate, live in Israel, and spare him/herself a life of guilt for not having moved to Israel when he/she could have.
3. Finally, I want to thank you for this most excellent blogosphere discussion - you write articulately and respectfully - Toda!
May Hashem bless you with a wonderful soulmate!!!
I second that!
Mordy,
You wrote,
“The single most debilitating issue in dating is closed-mindedness.”
I must say that I absolutely agree with you. Singles have all kinds of issues that they might get hung up on and so far we have covered two of them, Zionism and (Lehavdel) Feminism (in my latest post).
The problem is that once someone passionately believes something and they are convinced they can’t live without it, it’s a lost cause. The only solution is to take preventive measures and adjust the ideology when it’s being taught to not be so rigid when it comes to finding a mate.
I also want to differentiate between frivolous criteria such as, blue eyes only, and other criteria that might be worthwhile to pursue. Of course one person’s diamonds is another person’s nonsense.
But that is the extent of my agreement with you.
You wrote:
“One simple idea that everyone seems to forget is that in the dating pool, 100% of the girls have the potential to be your bride.”
That statement makes no sense. You disagree with Chazal that making a shidduch is as difficult as splitting the sea? As well as the famous story of the roman general who said (apparently in agreement with you,) that he can make shidduchim and went ahead and put together 1000 of his men slaves with a thousand of his women to disastrous results.
Each and every human being was created with unique sensibilities and different needs and capabilities. In order to make a complete and fulfilling Bayis Neman, two people must be matched appropriately in their uniqueness.
You wrote:
“however, maybe dating 100 girls indiscriminately really is all you need to do to find the right girl.
But the deeper issue involved with not dating indiscriminately is really a lack of emuna. Most people between the ages of 28 and 35 have just lost faith.”
The insensitivity is mind boggling. For you to suggest such a silly and hurtful concept as dating indiscriminately tells me that you don’t have the first understanding of singles and I pray that you are not a shadchen, although I suspect you are.
Putting two people together that with a little research or email interaction would quickly disqualify them is a serious sin. You are causing a waste of money (Torah Chosser all Momon Shel Yisroel) causing false hope that can lead to emotional pain, (Lifnei Ever Lo Sitan Michshal) and just plain wasting peoples time, energy and effort that will cause them to become disillusioned, sad, and have a difficult time being prepared for the right one.
To say that singles don’t have Emunah is the height of chutzpah. I know many singles that despite great struggle remain steadfast in their beliefs. They can many times be tested in ways that you should never know of, and by and large their emunah and bitachon carry them through their nisyonos.
You mention learning Mussar for 15 minutes a day. I can’t believe someone with such insensitivity learns any mussar. I would love to sit down with you and learn some mussar with you and show you how anti-mussar you are acting.
But the last part of your post really takes the cake. After being insulting and dismissive as can be to singles you go ahead and call them:
“…the decisions of mature, educated, and intelligent people.”
I don’t want to know what you think of immature, uneducated, and intelligently challenged people. As far as the substantive issue you raised in your closing paragraph regarding my asking educators vs. singles to take responsibility to make changes, see the second paragraph of this comment.
Sorry for the tone of my comment, but you really were over the top.
Forgive me.
Mordy,
The following excerpt from an article by a social worker for Ohel might be helpful to you and your “colleagues”. I sincerely hope you take the following words to heart and change the way you speak about and treat singles.
Shidduchim : How Parents Can Help
By Tzivya Rieter L.C.S.W.
…Validate her feelings when she does confide in you. Platitudes such as “you never know, one date can’t hurt, it’s better than sitting home alone, etc.” only serve to increase her sense of alienation and her alienation and her feeling of being misunderstood. To many singles, one highly incompatible date can hurt and is not better than sitting home alone where at least you are comfortable and are not subject to rejection or disappointment.
Support and defend your child in front of intrusive family or community members. Create boundaries so that they understand that unless they have constructive suggestions to make, this topic is off limits. Do not allow them to blame your child for his or her single status with statements such as “he’s too picky, what is she waiting for already? etc.” A good example of this occurred between a father and his single daughter when he overheard a family friend ask her, “Nu, when are you going to give your parents nachas already?” He jumped in and said, “She already gives us so much nachas. We couldn’t be more proud of her.”
At no time is it ever appropriate to make any comments about the urgency of getting married in order to have children.
• Don’t think that just because your child may be engaging in vacations, interesting trips, classes and Shabbatonim, while single, she is too busy having fun and doesn’t want to get married. She wants to get married, she is just trying to make the most productive and interesting use of her time while she is waiting.
Assume at all times that your child really, really wants to get married. Don’t doubt that fact, don’t question it and don’t blame him for his single status.
• Too much emphasis is placed on the ultimate goal of “getting married.” Getting married in and of itself is not an accomplishment. Creating and sustaining a successful, loving and giving marriage where husband and wife treat one another with sensitivity and respect is an accomplishment. Continually developing one’s middos to become a caring and sensitive person who will make an excellent friend, son and, eventually, husband is an accomplishment. That is the message that should be given to your child.
The time that your child spends as a single is not wasted. It is a period where he will be faced with challenge and stress, yet it is a period that, with your support, will develop his traits of perseverance, sensitivity and compassion.
Yishai,
I don’t think I can respond beyond things I have already said. The bottom line is that you and other Zionist believe that some of the side harmful consequences are irrelevant in the face of making Aliyah.
I believe that if you moderate it slightly you will still accomplish your goal without causing pain and suffering amongst singles.
It’s the old debate whether the ends justify the means.
Let’s agree to disagree.
I appreciate your reasonable and respectful tone throughout this discussion and I thank you for your compliments and well wishes.
May we all find our Bashert and live in Eretz Yisroel with Moshiach Tzidkanu Bimhero Veumainu!
Amen!
Why do you kids take these things as is they are written in stone? Just because someone says they want to live in Israel today doesn't mean they are going to want to tomorrow--send that email!
Post a Comment
Links to this post:
Create a Link
<< Home